New Jersey


Maria Vogel-Short

August 21, 2008

In a case of first impression, a Bergen County, N.J., judge has ruled that a plaintiff can compel the videotaping of her own deposition, even if the deposing party opposes it.

Superior Court Judge Rachelle Harz wrote that a plaintiff-driven recording does not run afoul of the court rule governing videotaped depositions and that any party may videotape a deposition.

She added that videotaping has become a mainstay among lawyers. “Case law from New Jersey and other jurisdictions involving the videotaping of oral examinations makes clear that videotaping has become an acceptable method of creating a deposition record and is widely embraced by the legal profession,” Harz wrote in LaMarche v. Hackensack University Medical Center, BER-L-1100-07.

At issue was New Jersey Court Rule 4:14-9, which governs videotaped depositions. Though it does not address situations in which the deposing party opposes the taping, it does not prohibit it, Harz held.

Her ruling, posted on the state judiciary’s Web site on Aug. 15 and issued on July 22, arose in a medical malpractice suit. Anna LaMarche, now 70, of Hackensack, N.J, was taken to Hackensack University Medical Center on Feb. 12, 2005, for treatment of head and other injuries in a car accident. She was released that day, lost consciousness the next day, was taken back to the hospital for surgery for a subdural hematoma and lapsed into a coma.

She suffered permanent brain injury and cognitive impairment, and had to relearn how to speak, read and move her limbs.

LaMarche sued on Feb. 13, 2007, alleging that the hospital, emergency room physician Vicki Goldhill and nurse Kathleen Ward deviated from the standard of care by failing to take a CT scan and providing information at discharge about complications from head injuries.

On May 9, 2008, defense attorney Rowena Duran of Duran & Pandos in Mountainside, N.J., notified LaMarche of her intent to depose her on June 13. LaMarche’s attorney, Michael Maggiano of Maggiano, DiGirolamo, Lizzi & Roberts in Fort Lee, N.J., asked on May 13 that the deposition be videotaped at the plaintiff’s expense.

Duran opposed it, arguing that R. 4:14-9 is driven by the need to save on travel expenses or preserve testimony by an expert witness or treating physician who would be unavailable at trial.

LaMarche did not fall into either category and her age and physical condition did not render her unique in a medical malpractice case, Duran said. The videotape proposal, Harz’s opinion quoted Duran as saying, “was a blatant attempt to limit what and how I conduct my discovery deposition which is clearly not the purpose of this rule.”

Duran argued that the rule supported her stance because it states that the party who takes the deposition is the party who videotapes it and that the cost of a videotaped deposition is paid by the party taking the deposition.

But Maggiano said videotaping complies with the fairness and justice elements of R. 1:1-2, which allows for flexible interpretation of rules. Maggiano argued that the videotape would help the claims manager, a mediator and a trial judge to see LaMarche’s verbalization problems. He also contended that R. 4:14-9(b) enables any party to videotape a deposition so long as notice is served at least 10 days before the deposition date.

Banning a videotaped deposition would present an unwarranted limitation on discovery and recordation tools, he added.

Harz agreed, noting that the broadest latitude should be accorded for discovery and that an audiovisual record is an improvement over a “cold disposition” and assists the trier of fact.

She also said that Duran’s opposition amounts to a request for a protective order blocking the videotaping. R. 4:10-3(c) requires a party show good cause of a potential burden when he or she objects to a proposed discovery method, but Harz said no New Jersey cases address R. 4:10-3(c) in connection with a videotaped deposition. So she turned to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(c), which requires that the party show a clearly defined, serious injury. She also relied on Fanelli v. Centenary College, 211 F.R.D. 268 (D.N.J. 2002), which denied a plaintiff a protective order after a defendant intended to videotape the plaintiff’s deposition. Fanelli also said the harm cited cannot be general or speculative.

Harz said Duran’s focus on the potential effect of the videotaping on her style of questioning fell short of the mark needed to establish harm.

“Simply because defense counsel is somewhat camera shy and/or uncomfortable about the prospect of questioning plaintiff before a video camera” wasn’t enough, Harz said.

Duran did not return a telephone call.

Maggiano says he wanted the deposition videotaped because reading LaMarche’s answers would not show how she answered the questions.

“Her words might be slow, delayed and slurred. In a written deposition, you only would see what she said, not how she said it. If you watch her testimony, you can actually see how she was affected by this event,” Maggiano says.

Go to the » Hackensack forum

1081. Does anyone have any information

by pedro045, 9/29/08 9:05 ET

regarding a medical emergency on Central Avenue approximately 12 days ago?

From what I was told, Hackensack Fire Dept. Rescue Company was on the scene as First Responder for a call in which an elderly female had lost consciousness and was having difficulty breathing.

Hackensack University Medical Center Ambulance (Vanguard) arrived and the Vanguard EMT’s chose to ignre the information that the Fire Rescue Officer attempted to pass on to them and cancelled the Paramedic Unit that was responding but had not yet arrived.

Reportedly the HUMC/Vanguard EMT’s concluded that there was nothing wrongand convinced this woman to RMA (Refuse Medical Aid).

Apparently some time later, this woman still not feeling good went to HUMC where she suffered a severe stroke.

Can anyone confirme that this happened?

1081.1. Shocking….

by HackBiz, 9/29/08 13:27 ET
Re: Does anyone have any information by pedro045, 9/29/08

NOT! I understand that there have been substantial delays with getting the first responder units notified. Plus, it would seem the Vanguard folks are very touchy about having the FD units on the scene with them. Guess they figure there’s less risk of being charged with incompetence if nobody on the outside sees it. Yup, equal or better indeed!

1081.2. True

by USAG0223, 9/29/08 16:08 ET
Re: Does anyone have any information by pedro045, 9/29/08

Woman was incoherently babbling and not making sense, one of the major signs of a stroke – brain activity not normal. AN EXPERIENCED EMT WOULD RECOGNIZE THESE SYMPTOMS RIGHT AWAY AND KNOW PARAMEDICS ARE NEEDED ON SCENE! “Corcone HPD-GPS” was on scene advising HUMC Vanguard, RMA signed. HFD engine 1st responder was advised to clear scene by HPD supervisor on scene. Woman was a local elderly resident that has been extremely vocal/critical in that neighborhood over the years trying to improve it for the residents, City Government had seen her as a thorn. She owns multiple properties on Central/First. She had suffered a stroke and was brought to hospital later in the day. If it was one of our “SAVE OUR 8” HFDEMS professional responders, she would not have suffered further injury as it now seems. TOP QUALITY CARE MY A**, it’s only a matter of time when someone dies and it will be covered up if your disposable.

February 18, 2008 — billgarcia

Go Here

Hackensack University Medical Center is used to being named to lists of the best places for medical care. Now it’s ended up on the FBI’s weekly top 10 list of cases, its executives mentioned prominently in the corruption indictment of a state lawmaker.

Read the rest HERE!

The NJ Cosa Nostra: NJ Senator Joseph Coniglio Indicted for Fraud and Extortion by Feds

ONE DOWN….

A federal grand jury on Friday indicted State Senator Joseph Coniglio of New Jersey on nine counts of mail fraud and extortion in connection with an influence-peddling scheme connected to a $66,000-a-year consulting arrangement with Hackensack University Medical Center, according to the US Justice Department

Coniglio is said to be one of the more powerful members of the New Jersey Democratic Machine that includes Governor Jon Corzine.

Coniglio, 65, of Paramus, NJ, a plumber by trade, allegedly set up the consulting arrangement with Hackensack University Medical Center to perform “hospital relations,” a field in which he had no prior experience. In fact, according to the Indictment, the arrangement was a way for him to receive $5,000 monthly from the hospital in exchange for his official support for funding requests for so-called “Christmas Tree” budget items from the state Legislature and funding from other state agencies.

As a direct result of his corrupt consulting arrangement and influence as a state Senator, the hospital received millions of dollars from the State of New Jersey.

“Trading personally on a position of public trust continues as an epidemic in New Jersey,” said Chris Christie, a US Attorney.

“The allegations against Senator Coniglio in this indictment paint a disgraceful picture of exchanging public tax dollars for personal gain. The public has had more than enough of this type of conduct,” he said.

The investigation by the FBI and US Attorney’s Office in New Jersey is continuing and more indictments may be forthcoming..

The Indictment also alleges that he concealed this arrangement with the hospital in several ways: by failing to completely disclose it on his publicly filed financial disclosure statement; by misleading the news media when specifically questioned about the arrangement; and by failing to disclose material information regarding the arrangement to a state legislative ethics committee, which subsequently dismissed its own investigation regarding Coniglio’s services to the hospital, for insufficient evidence of an ethics violation.

After the Indictment was returned today, Coniglio turned himself in to the FBI in Newark and then made an initial court appearance before US Magistrate Judge Michael A. Shipp. Bail was set at $250,000, to be secured by equity in Coniglio’s home.

Arraignment on the Indictment is scheduled for February 20 before US District Judge Dennis M. Cavanaugh, to whom the case has been assigned. Coniglio was first elected to the Senate in November 2001, after serving as a local official in various capacities in Paramus, including as a Paramus Borough Councilman.

Coniglio is charged in Counts One through Eight of the Indictment with a scheme to defraud the public of his honest services by use of the mails, and in Count Nine with affecting commerce by extortion under color of official right. Each count carries a statutory maximum prison sentence of 20 years and maximum fine of $250,000 per count.

According to the Indictment, Coniglio began negotiating the consulting arrangement with the hospital in early 2004, soon after his appointment to the influential Senate Budget and Appropriations Committee.

In May of 2004, after meeting with the HUMC Chief Executive Officer (HUMC CEO) and other hospital personnel, Coniglio entered a written agreement with the fund-raising arm of the hospital under the guise of a company, VJC Consulting, LLC, which was misleadingly represented to be “engaged in the business of hospital relations.”

VJC had been established less than a month before, had no clients other than HUMC and neither of its two purported principals—Coniglio, a plumber by trade, and his wife, clerk to the Bergen County Board of Chosen Freeholders—possessed any experience in the business of “hospital relations.” According to the Indictment, accepting HUMC payments through VJC permitted Coniglio to mask the true source of his income on public annual financial disclosure statements, in which he disclosed only his firm but not the hopsital.

The charges allege that at the very outset of the corrupt arrangement, which continued through February 2006, Coniglio conveyed his true value to HUMC by providing the hospital with assurances of his official support for any HUMC State funding requests. The Indictment charges that in exchange for accepting the $5,000 monthly from HUMC, Coniglio entertained and endorsed before the Senate and various state agencies HUMC’s requests for increased funding, resulting in the hospital receiving millions of dollars from the state.

According to the charges, in or about February 2005—and within a short time of Coniglio assisting in securing for HUMC two grants totaling approximately $1.15 million in Property Tax Assistance and Community Development Grant (PTACDG) funds (colloquially referred to as “Christmas Tree Money” and “Earmarks”)—Coniglio received a raise of $500 per month, increasing his annual payment to $66,000.

In addition to assisting the hospital in securing the PTACDG money, Coniglio, as set forth in the Indictment, sent two letters on State Senate letterhead in September 2004 to the New Jersey Department of Human Services giving his official support to two separate HUMC grant applications, one of which resulted in HUMC receiving $70,000 in state funds. The hospital also called upon Coniglio to support a grant application before the New Jersey Department of Health and Senior Services (NJDHSS) in June 2005, which resulted in HUMC receiving an additional $64,000.

According to the Indictment, in June 2005, Coniglio met personally with the NJDHSS Commissioner, along with the HUMC CEO and other HUMC personnel, at the hospital to discuss state support for HUMC’s attempt to secure additional funding for the hospital’s new cancer center. Approximately three months later, NJDHSS issued a notification of award to HUMC for $9 million in new state funding.

In addition to the use of VJC to accept and mask the stream of payments from HUMC, the Indictment alleges that Coniglio intentionally undertook several measures to conceal the corrupt aspects of the arrangement, including intentionally failing to detail the nature of his “consulting services” on invoices, and falsely describing his role at the hospital as limited to building and construction issues.

The Indictment also charges that Coniglio’s Chief of Staff, responding to a newspaper’s inquiry into Coniglio’s arrangement with HUMC, falsely stated that “there is a complete split between Senator Coniglio’s personal, private business life and his legislative life. . . . People from the hospital know not to call our office.”

In fact, as stated in the Indictment, his Chief of Staff knew Coniglio was using his Senate office to assist HUMC, and HUMC personnel freely and frequently contacted Coniglio’s Senate Office and staff, particularly the Chief of Staff, with requests for official assistance, which Coniglio and his Chief of Staff routinely entertained while Coniglio was accepting the monthly payments from HUMC.

According to the Indictment, the concealment extended to Coniglio’s August 2006 written response to the Joint Legislative Committee on Ethical Standards (Ethics Committee)—the bipartisan committee that was investigating Coniglio’s services to HUMC and his involvement in appropriating State funds for the hospital.

Coniglio falsely represented that he “at no time . . . advocate[d] or promote[d] any grants, including the $250,000 or $900,000 grants for [HUMC],” and that he “had no discussions with any member fo the Executive Branch regarding these grants.”

Although specifically instructed to disclose his involvement in appropriating funds to HUMC and “provide all documentation relating thereto,” Coniglio omitted any mention to the Ethics Committee of the many instances in which he served HUMC using his official position as a State Senator, and failed to disclose any of the documents indicating the official assistance that he took on behalf of HUMC while accepting a total of approximately $103,900 in monthly payments from the hospital.

The Ethics Committee subsequently dismissed its investigation for insufficient evidence of an ethics violation, according to the charges.

Coniglio was first elected to the Senate in November 2001, after serving as a local official in various capacities in Paramus, including as a Paramus Borough Councilman. Christie credited Special Agents of the FBI, under the direction of Special Agent in Charge Weysan Dun, with the investigation leading to the Indictment.

Having experienced this first hand with my mother who WAS and the key word is WAS a patient at HUMC- the wait is horrendous, no communication, overbooked and nasty nurses was her opinion…..E. Nigma

Sunday, August 5, 2007
Last updated: Tuesday March 11, 2008, EDT 4:26 AM

LINDY WASHBURN

STAFF WRITER

There’s a waiting room at the hospital breast center where I went for my mammograms. I call it the anxiety room.

It’s for women like me, who’ve already been diagnosed with breast cancer, or for those who need a second opinion or frequent follow-ups.

It’s crowded.

Women in white bathrobes fill almost every seat. They ooze anxiety from every pore.

On my first visit, I thought my 8 a.m. appointment would put me at the head of the line. But several others shared the same slot. One grouched that she had to take a day off every time she came — which was often — because she never knew how long she’d be there.

That’s the dirty secret of breast cancer care around North Jersey these days: The waits to find out if you have cancer and what you should do about it are agonizingly long — and getting longer.

Several free-standing mammography centers have closed, forcing more women to go to busy hospital breast centers for their annual screening mammograms. At Hackensack University Medical Center, for instance, women must book screening appointments five or six months in advance.

As the remaining centers cope with more patients, very few provide results of mammograms while women wait anymore. If news is good, most mail them out within a few days. If a mammogram shows something suspicious, patients are notified quickly, but often have to wait an excruciating week or longer to be squeezed into the schedule for a follow-up test.

“It’s a pretty significant crisis,” says Dr. Gail Starr, director of imaging at the Institute for Breast Care at Hackensack University Medical Center. “It’s definitely a challenge, with these centers closing. Where can they [the patients] go?”

Now comes even more worrisome news: More women are skipping their annual mammograms. It’s a potentially deadly trend, because breast cancer rates had been improving dramatically as a result of the widespread use of mammography.

“Our fear in the breast imaging world is that we’ll lose the gains,” says Melinda Staiger, a member of the American Cancer Society’s regional mammography strike force and a radiologist at the breast care center of Monmouth Medical Center.

Death rates from breast cancer dropped 24 percent from 1990 to 2000, in large part because increased use of mammograms has led to early detection and early treatment.

But women of all economic classes, including those with health insurance and those without, are failing to get their annual mammograms. Shockingly, this even includes cancer survivors. A recent study found that only 55 percent of New Jersey women on Medicare, ages 52 to 69, had had mammograms in the last two years.

Does the wait and inconvenience have anything to do with it? “Nobody knows. … But it’s certainly not the ideal situation,” says Dr. Carol H. Lee, chairwoman of the breast imaging commission of the American College of Radiology and a professor at the Yale University School of Medicine.

Insurers pay too little

Mammography is a procedure proven to save women’s lives, yet the economics of American medicine doesn’t support it.

Radiologists say that managed-care plans and Medicare, which insures those over 65, pay them less than the actual cost of a screening mammogram.

My initial screening mammography, the one that changed my life, was reimbursed by a private insurer at exactly $92.31. That’s not enough, says Staiger, to cover the cost of producing and interpreting the film. And there are no economies of scale: “The more you do, the more you lose,” she says.

Small wonder that hospitals, increasingly, are becoming the main centers for mammography. For a hospital it’s a loss-leader: screening procedures inevitably lead to a certain number of profitable surgeries and cancer treatments.

Englewood Hospital and Medical Center’s mammography business grew by 7 percent last year — to 18,700 mammograms — and 12 percent the year before. The Valley Hospital’s grew 17 percent, to 11,000 annually. Hackensack’s breast center does 40,000 mammographies every year.

“It seems like every few months, I hear of a place that is not doing this anymore,” says Dr. Edward Lubat, Valley Hospital’s director of body imaging and managing partner at Radiology Associates of Ridgewood.

Mahwah Radiology closed on April 30. Some of their 5,000 patients will go to another facility owned by the same partners in West Paterson, but others will transfer elsewhere.

“We’re very sad to be closing this down,” says Melody Sanchez, the office manager. “Financially, it was not feasible to continue operating.” Insurance payments for a screening mammography usually ran less than $100 a case, she says.

The final blow, says Dr. Orestes Sanchez, a radiologist and co-owner of the center, was the 3.5 percent tax the state levied on ambulatory services centers to balance the state budget last year.

“That was the only profit I had,” he says. In April, he had to take out a personal loan to pay the tax.

Two or three afternoons a week this summer, his wife, the manager, has carted old mammography films to the lobby of the former Mahwah office to give patients their files.

In Fairview, Superior Medical Imaging stopped offering mammography services in the spring, when its mammogram technologist quit. The cost to replace her was more than the center could earn by providing the service, says Lisa Gagliano, the owner and administrator. They resumed last month anyway, because of the demand from doctors who refer patients.

“The government should step up to the plate,” with adequate reimbursement rates, Gagliano says.

Last year, Clifton Radiologist Associates on Route 46 closed; Montvale Radiology closed before that. In July 2005, Dr. Noah Weg abruptly closed his mammography practice in Suffern, N.Y.; only when Good Samaritan Hospital took custody of the patient records did women gain access to their X-rays.

Across New Jersey, the number of mammography machines in use has dropped from 504 to 375 in the past three years as centers have closed, says Jill Lipoti, director of environmental safety and health for the state Department of Environmental Protection, which regulates the service.

Meanwhile, other centers have been cited for poor-quality work. Two non-hospital mammography centers were barred from performing mammograms in recent months after federal investigators said the images taken there posed a serious risk to the health of patients.

Nearly 1,100 women — patients of Hackensack Medical & Molecular Imaging, on State Street, and Englewood Imaging Center, on North Dean Street — were notified that federal regulators were concerned about the quality of their mammograms. They were advised to repeat them or have the films reevaluated. Englewood corrected its problems and was allowed to resume performing mammograms in April.

Even hospitals aren’t immune: Federal investigators discovered that St. Mary’s Hospital in Passaic performed mammographies for four months with faulty quality-control equipment. The hospital hadn’t repaired the part because it didn’t have the money.

After the investigation, the equipment was fixed quickly and mammography services resumed.

Radiologist shortage

As mammography centers struggle with low reimbursements, they’re also competing to hire doctors and technologists who specialize in breast imaging.

The number of radiologists specializing in the field is not keeping up with demand. Three out of 10 mammography practices in 2003 reported job vacancies. The number of physicians working in the field has dropped steadily since 1999. The Society of Breast Imaging says that two-thirds of training positions for future specialists go unfilled because fewer and fewer radiology residents want to go into breast imaging.

Englewood hospital spent more than six months this year looking for two specialty radiologists for its breast center, says Dan Markham, the hospital’s vice president.

The work is stressful and the risk of malpractice is high.

“There are very few other areas of imaging where you’re dealing day in and day out with cancer or no cancer,” Lee says. “If I read chest X-rays, it’s pneumonia or not. If I read bone X-rays, I see fractures. We’re dealing with women who are understandably anxious and upset. It can be very nerve-racking.”

Nowadays, hospitals have to pay attention to the stress of their technologists and doctors. Hackensack medical center could add to the 40,000 cases annually at its Institute for Breast Care, but doesn’t want to cause staff burnout, says Starr, the hospital’s director of imaging.

The need to see more women faster has forced most centers to take the reading of mammograms “off line,” so their physicians can read a stack of X-rays in one sitting, rather than while the patient waits.

“Our volume shot up so much that we couldn’t cope with giving the results right away,” says Dr. Kyunghee Choi, director of Pascack Valley Hospital’s breast center. Now, patients get the results within a week or so.

While women find the wait stressful, doctors say the delays are not cause for alarm. “To tell you the truth, I wouldn’t want my mammography done online,” Lee says. “I want my radiologist sitting in a dark room,” reading a pile of films with total concentration.

“Most tumors in the breast have been there a while,” Starr says. “Waiting a week or waiting 10 days is not the end of the world.”

For women who don’t mind paying cash for the service, there are a handful of boutique centers that offer same-day results and face-to-face consultations with radiologists. But they don’t deal with insurance plans.

The consolidation of mammography services at hospitals is also a good idea, to some.

“I would never let my wife go to a free-standing mammography center,” says Francisco Rodriguez of Goldsmith Richman & Harz, a medical malpractice firm in Englewood Cliffs. “These centers have traditionally been more likely to have radiologists reading mammograms who were not appropriately trained or who just do not have the experience in reading them. The malpractice rates are reflective of this sad fact.”

Schedule far ahead

No matter how comfy the robes, or plush the carpeting, anxiety is inescapable.

My stomach lurched after I went in for my first round of pictures at 9:30 that morning. The technologist returned to say she needed “a few more pictures” — this time of my other breast, the one that supposedly didn’t have cancer. My films were being made to determine how extensive my surgery should be. They’d be read while I waited, but it would take a few hours.

I waited again after that for ultrasound imaging. The radiologist told me her concerns about the other side had been unwarranted. I felt lucky to be finished by lunchtime.

Another woman at the same center drives up from South Jersey, where she moved when she retired, for her semiannual mammograms. She’s had many close calls and is followed carefully. One day last month, she had eight breast X-rays, one ultrasound, two fine-needle aspirations of her right breast, one core biopsy on her left breast and two more X-rays.

It took five hours. Five days later, she learned no cancer was found.

“As anyone who has had to wait for the results of medical tests can attest, these are the longest days of our lives,” she says.

I’m not even midway through my treatment for breast cancer, but I’ve already got a date for my next mammogram. At the end of a post-op visit, my surgeon told me when I should be checked again.

“Make your appointment now,” the nurse said. “They’ve very busy.”

So I’m booked — for next April.

E-mail: washburn@northjersey.com

State to probe HUMC in patient ‘dumping’ case.

Byline: Mary Jo Layton
Source: Record (Hackensack, NJ)

Dec. 22–The state health department is investigating Hackensack University Medical Center for allegedly discharging a blind paraplegic patient before he was well enough to leave.

The case involved a 58-year-old man from Ecuador with no health insurance who underwent lifesaving surgery in June and remained at the hospital for more than three months until Hackensack obtained a court order to discharge him.

Gustavo Segovia was dropped off by an ambulance at a vacant apartment in Little Ferry with no medical equipment, feverish, in respiratory distress and with advanced bed sores. Two hours later, he was so ill, he was taken by ambulance..More Here

Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

By Bob Groves, The Record, Hackensack, N.J. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

Jan. 29–Justin Mattes set his walker aside and was helped up the steps of the banquet room stage to stand, wavering, at the podium.

Mattes, 24, has cerebral palsy because of a mistake a doctor made during his birth, his attorney said. Everything’s a struggle for Mattes — walking, talking, shaving, eating, getting dressed. He can’t drive. Getting a job is nearly impossible. Though he is quite bright, strangers think he is mentally retarded.

But on Tuesday, Mattes spoke forcefully, if often unintelligibly, on behalf of lawyers who are fighting the attempts of doctors in New Jersey to limit jury awards in malpractice lawsuits to $250,000.

“For somebody like me, for what I’ve endured, a cap of $250,000 will not begin to compensate me for the pain and suffering I will always experience in my life,” the Woodcliff Lake resident said at a news conference Tuesday at a Secaucus hotel.

Just days before a threatened strike by doctors complaining about soaring medical malpractice premiums,…More Here